COMensarations
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
Of Hell, Satan and Politics
Another discussion up on PJM gone awry.
It seems that someone else on a discussion of politics and Judaism doesn’t grasp a christian perspective on all of this. Therefore, in order to carry on a discrete side-line discussion from THERE, I offer this opportunity.
TO: Jim Blusterman
RE: The Devil & Hell
Please show one piece of text that mentions Satan as a Devil type entity.—Jim Blusterman
Well, allow me to enumerate for you....
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.—1 Chronicles 21:1
So. Since when does a friend of God stand up against Israel?
Obviously Satan is one of God’s angels....—Jim Blusterman
And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?—Zecheriah 3:2
Why is it that God should be called upon to rebuke one of His angels?
....but you will never find a reference in Jeewish teachings about a concept like Hell.—Jim Blusterman
Never heard of Sheol?
You may spend an uncomfortable 11 months in what is referred to as Sheol or Gehinnom.—Jim Blusterman
Oh. You HAVE heard of Sheol. Could that be an elegant description of Hell.
This refers to the burning the soul feels at the heavenly trial after death. I found this very thoughtful section from an Orthodox Jew…stated much more elegantly..—Jim Blusterman
Euphemisms can be elegant. But that doesn’t change the nature of the matter. Denial is like that.
Essentially, we are brought to the heavenly court (God) and judged.—Jim Blusterman
There’s nothing here that contradicts christian understanding.
Satan (literally the accusser) is the prosecutor and wants to introduce all our sins into the equation.—Jim Blusterman
Nothing here either that contradicts christian understanding
God is merciful, and drops some of the sins before the trial begins (Rambam, Hilchos Teshuvah).—Jim Blusterman
Please give better information on these items.
After that, the soul basically watches two movies- one is- what your life was- the other, what your life could have been. The soul feels shame at the lost opportunities, at what it could have been vs what it is. It is this shame that feels like an eternity of burning.—Jim Blusterman
Is there popcorn? I like popcorn with movies. And a good pilsner beer too, please.
The burning is not a literal one- it is the burning of shame that it feels at realising how it has transgressed, when it could have been so much more!—Jim Blusterman
Why isn’t the ‘burning’ literal? Sounds like more denial-euphemisms to me.
Think of how, for us with physical bodies, the shame of being shouted at by a parent/teacher/ boss can feel like burning- how much worse for a soul which is a pure being and has no physical imperfections or mental imperfections to give it excuses!—Jim Blusterman
In this day and age, it seems like there is no such think as ‘shame’. Let alone an ‘authority figure’ such as God. Therefore, if there is no recognition why should anyone care? Here? Or there?
The point being that physical punishment, or the threat thereof, is much more effective to human beings, than is mental. Why do you think the death penalty is so effective in keeping down serious crime?
But though it states that this “burning” feels like an eternity- it truth, it never lasts for more than 12 months. God is much too loving to give out eternal punishments, just as a loving parent would never punish a child for forever..—Jim Blusterman
Where do you get the ’12 months’? I’ve read through that Old Book a number of times and I’ve not seen anything like what you describe; judgement, movies, shame; with or without popcorn and beer.
Yes. God does love us. But, as I understand His nature, he’s not going to be forgiving to unrepentant sinners. So, what does He do with them? The unrepentant.
RE: My Undertanding — Satan
First off, I’m a Christian of the evangelical persuasion. I do not abide to any particular ‘demoniation’.
My reference book is that Old Book, old and new sections.
There’s a lot in the newer section that identifies Satan as the perpetual enemy of mankind.
Yes. He IS a part of the creation, i.e., a part of God’s creation. However, he is also a rebel. He is opposed to God, jealous of His position in the order of things.
Why is that? Because he, like we mere mortals, has ‘free will’. Why should God create slaves in the higher forms of creation? So, angels, like men, have free will. And having such, they can make choices....to be good or evil. The difference being whom do they serve? Their selfish interests or unselfishly serving others?
RE: My Understanding — Hell
The only reference to Hell that I find in the Old Testament is in the form of Sheol. And it is enough. It’s rudimentary, in keeping with the philosophical understanding of the people it was mentioned to, i.e., the Hebrews of ancient times.
However, with advanced education comes better understanding. Don’t you think?
So, how do Hell and Satan relate?
Well, in that new part of that Old Book, we are informed that those whom God, does not ‘recognize’ are cast out from His protection.
Out in that area, without God’s protection, Satan roams about as a ‘roaring lion’. And, without God’s protection, Satan can collect those individuals for his own nefarious purposes.
But what does he do with these souls? Does he tickle them until they scream? How about he takes them to where he holds dominion? Hell. And once there they are in his ‘dungeon’ and he can do with them whatever he wants. Maybe he’s something of a sadist....
As for the ‘burning’, the report in the new part of that Old Book is that Hell is thrown in to a ‘burning lake’. And looking at the Universe from the Big Bang to whatever, in the theory of a cyclical Universe, I suppose it is not too far fetched to think that all the matter in creation coalesces into another pinpoint of matter and energy and everything as a wonderful display outside the window of the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
So, supposing such an understanding is correct, what would all that matter and energy and everything look like in the inky blackness of infinite nothingness? How about a fiery lake against a black backdrop? And in goes Hell, like a wadded up piece of paper into a ‘camp’ fire. Mere refuse of waste to be consumed.
Meanwhile, back in the restaurant, all the ‘wedding guests’ are celebrating.
Be advised.....
....this is just a taste to whet your appetite for learning.
Hopefully, you’re curiosity is whetted to the point you’d like to examine the matter further. However, if you demure, that’s understandable. I’ve encountered as much before.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Next entry: The Lost Boys of College — 090529 Previous entry: Another PJM Discussion....-
Sent you an e-mail via your blogspot profile.
BTW the Devil may have come from the Babylonians during that exile. Or the Persians. I forget.
Also note: the Persians still fondly remember Queen Esther. It bodes well for the future if the Persians can dump Islam.
M. Simon on 07/22 at 03:47 PM -
Have you heard of this?
Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters who will fulfill the oath we swore to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God.
Our motto is “Not on our watch!”
M. Simon on 08/11 at 07:17 PM