COMensarations
Monday, August 04, 2008
Reply to Jules141
An extended reply to a commenter over at Roger Rules.
Over at the Pajama Media site of Roger Kimball, there’s been a discussion on whether or not Britain can survive its self-inflicted multiculturalism.
On comment made by Jules141 required a lengthy off-topic response. So instead of taking up Roger’s bandwidth, I decided to post the reply here....
TO: Jules141
RE: The Story ALWAYS....
Anyway, this thread has somehow gone from multiculturalism to atheism.—Jules141
...grows in the telling.
Atheism is a part of multiculturalism. Indeed. Atheism thrives in that environment. Not only thrives, it foments it. Therefore, I believe it appropriate to address it.
What has been happening in England is an example of that, as I pointed out above where the clerics of the Church of England are deploring the decline of their religious organization and attendance. At the same time we’re talking about multiculturalism and the advancement of Islamism there.
The correlation of these three aspects will only be ignored by those who don’t care to hear it....because of their particular agenda. And atheism, as I pointed out earlier, is part and parcel of the problem. I’ll wager dollars against donuts that anarchists are atheists or much, much worse, i.e., in league with that other camp.
RE: As You See It
My thoughts on the matter … you are right to say that religions are more organised, and much much better at organising than atheists. The only thing that makes someone an atheist is disbelieve in a god. And this is why secular society should be wary of extremist or simply religious groups.-- Jules141
Extremism of just about any sort, including misplaced love, can be dangerous.
But if, and this is a big if, a war between one religion and atheists were to break out, the atheists would have to fight to defend themselves.—Jules141
There will be war; sooner or later. Indeed, it is already joined. But not of the overtly violent form....yet. Except for the occasional church shooting incident. But I suspect those are instigated more by the followers of that other camp than the mere atheists.
Yes they wouldn’t be organised, but where would there limits be? Atoms colliding against other atoms. They wouldn’t be fighting for a believe but simply for life itself. They would also be fighting with the knowledge that they are fighting against idiots. No matter how many weapons they have.—Jules141
People who are fighting just for their own life are hardly going to be ‘organized’ in any effective manner. They’ll be fighting in dribbles and drabs at best and therefore subject to what is known as ‘defeat in detail’.
RE: The Future
“The future, from my perspective, i.e., Christian, is hardly ‘dark’. A bit messy, here and there, but hardly the doom you seem to think.”-- Chuck Pelto
Are you sure its the future I seem to think? Sarcasm is easily misunderstood.-- Jules141
Well. I’m not being sarcastic. Maybe you were, but being the perfect ‘straight man’, I generally take people at their word.
What sort of ‘future’ were you thinking of?
“After all, from the atheist perspective there is either (1) eternal nothingness or (2) the unfortunate discovery that Christianity—or some other group—was correct; albeit too late for a change of heart. The former is merely ‘dark’. The latter is literally horrific; a much worse form of ‘dark’.”-- Chuck Pelto
This is just an attack on atheism, which has nothing to do with the point at hand. But whilst where here:-- Jules141
What was I saying about “There will be war”? But since we’re on it, YOU were the one who brought up ‘dark future’. I just explained the Christian perspective on it. I can’t help it if you don’t care for it.
You see I have the, oh? What would you call it? “self-indulgence”? To think that what some (most) people believe in is rubbish. Just as you are either a Christian or a Muslim, and have the “self-indulgence” to choose what you believe in, the consequence will be bad if you happen to be wrong.-- Jules141
Uuuuhhhh....
There’s less to ‘self-indulgence’ than you think. It’s all about selfishness. Not about free will.
The difference between me and you is I’m not self-indulgent enough to want heaven, or even a reasonable after-life. And I am not a coward, afraid of God, or afraid of being wrong, but standing up for the truth, which I believe is right.-- Jules141
Twisting the concept of ‘self-indulgence’ is not serving you well.
As for not being ‘afraid’, I’m reminded of Yoda talking to young Luke Skywalker as they stand before that knarlled old tree, “You WILL be.”
As for ‘truth’. You’d likely reject it even if He came up and kissed you. You’re so bound up in that prison of your own construction that if the walls came tumbling down, you’d bury yourself in the rubble rather than face the Truth. But remember this, He stands at the door [to your prison] and knocks. All you have to do is have the REAL courage to open the door.
As in the Matrix, Morpheus shows the door to the Oracle’s place to Neo and says, “I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it.”
“Atheists are probably the most self-indulgent people on the face of the planet.”-- Chuck Pelto
What do atheists believe? Many believe in scientific theory. The same scientific theory that save thousands of lives a day in medicinal, health practices, surgery and diagnosis. The same scientific theory that puts moving images on my TV, and makes planes fly.—Jules141
Since when has being a Christian meant that one doesn’t believe planes can fly? Or that medicine cannot alleviate suffering from disease or accident?
On the other hand from the Christian perspective, God made the Earth and everything therein for Man. We should use it accordingly in good stewardship. And I do.
On the third hand, evidence of the paragraph immediately above can be found in the wonderful things we have that can help us with the second sentence in the paragraph above that; medicine. Ever hear of a heresy [to modern American medicine] called homeopathy? I’ve found it to be extremely effective for injuries and ailments. And it’s from the things we find on or in the Earth; plants, animals, and minerals. Each has its special use. For example, I can relieve the pain of a severe burn with cantharis. And I get those more frequently than I care for, because I do most of the cooking in this household.
I am not self-indulgent enough to pick and choose what scientific theory is right and wrong. It’s saved my life before, and that’s enough for me to trust all scientific theory - even the stuff about there being no God.-- Jules141
Christians, at least the real ones, do not pick and choose what parts of the Bible they think are right or wrong.
What’s you point? That science has proven that God does not exist? Talk about self-indulgent. Let alone self-delusion.
Show me where science has proven God does not exist.
On the other hand, let me show you where, just last week, Science proved another part of the Bible is correct.....
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/07/is-aging-an-acc.html
Compare that report with this....
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.—Gen 2:17
Hey, I would have LOVED a good stab at an after-life, the whole idea of a god is a lovely idea that I would love to believe in. But I’m not self-indulgent enough to believe in something just because I want it too be true.-- Jules141
First off, I think we’ve proven your self-indulgent nature, above.
Secondly, it’s not too late for you to open your mind to a reality that you don’t care to think of. One in which there is Someone greater than yourself. After all, thinking that there is someone more important than yourself is hardly ‘self-indulgence’. Rather, self-indulgence is thinking that there is no one more important than yourself. Not the twisting of the English language and logic that you’re attempting.
How can you call atheism self-indulgence? Putting my faith in science that might one day discover a cure for cancer. Will religion discover a cure for cancer? No, it will lie to the dying person to make them happy.-- Jules141
Funny you should mention cancer. As a matter of fact, I think your vaunted Science has discovered a cure for it. But for some strange reason, the wealthy pharmaceutical company which holds a patent on the process to extract the naturally occurring material from the plant, is ‘sitting’ on it; according to what I understand.
Why would a scientific organization like that do such a thing?
Search the web on the terms “graviola” and “Purdue”. Or check out this link....
http://www.peruvillage.com/3030/Cancer_purdue.html
By the way, this information, if correct, is just another proof of how God made the Earth for Man and filled it with wonders to help us. Akin to homeopathy.
You can keep your ‘science’ that you place ALL your faith in. In the meantime, Christians will use science and Faith. And which philosophy do you think has the greater variety of tools?
I’m not going to have an after-life, but I believe in the truth. And I’ve never felt better knowing that there is no chance of me being deceived. Just atoms.-- Jules141
Actually, you ARE going to have one. Whether you like it or not. And, based on current information, you’ll probably not like it much at all.
How is it I can state this with so much confidence? Because I’ve encountered and experienced things that you have not. And I am confident in my statements on this subject.
Furthermore, it is not essential to me to convert you. Indeed, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for me to do so. But it is required of me that I tell you the Truth. What you do with it is YOUR responsibility.
So I suppose your right about atheists being bad organisers, and not really having to care for the future. But they are human, they want to have emotion and make memorise. So when the time comes I’m sure they will do a damn good job of fighting.-- Jules141
Unfortunately, as you stated earlier, they’ll just be fighting for their own separate lives. They’ll be unorganized, easily defeated and killed by the better organized and more bloody-minded Islamists.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.—John 8:32]
P.S. See? You’re not the only one interested in the Truth. So, as I said above, which philosophy has a greater variety of tools? Christians or atheists?
Next entry: Talking Prophecy — 080810 Previous entry: Problems in the Blogosphere-
After my four day holiday (cut short due to bad British weather) I return with this little treat awaiting. I will try to comment as much as I can, but I am tired and will leave you with one little point for today…
“Actually, you ARE going to have one. Whether you like it or not. And, based on current information, you’ll probably not like it much at all.
How is it I can state this with so much confidence? Because I’ve encountered and experienced things that you have not. And I am confident in my statements on this subject.
Furthermore, it is not essential to me to convert you. Indeed, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for me to do so. But it is required of me that I tell you the Truth. What you do with it is YOUR responsibility.”
I’ve had people tell me this before, in particular one very good friend of mine (Church of England Christian) said to me when we were discussing (arguing) about atheism and religion.
“Julian, one day you will understand. I promise you will.”
How is this any help? How is this supporting of religion. This is putting your argument forward and then running away. Putting fingers in your ears and shouting “I am right, I am right”.
If I was to say that to you, I would risk being labelled arrogant. I am sorry, but I am guessing you are Christian, and residing in the United States?
Saying that means nothing, especially seeming as how Christians, Muslims, Sihks and even atheists say it.
Will get back to you on your points, as i am very much enjoying this discussion, so long as it stays a discussion.
on 08/07 at 01:58 PM -
TO: Jules141
RE: VacationsEveryone needs one now and then. Indeed, I suspect that the one who needs a vacation most is the person who just returned from such. Especially if they’re into micro-management of their own ‘vacation’. Been there....Done that....Learned better.
Nowadays we target a part of the country we want to visit, pack a couple of bags and some camping gear and DRIVE there....taking our time, enjoying the scenery and alternating nights between camping grounds and bed-and-breakfast establishments. Don’t really have to go very far in THIS state.
Sorry to hear yours was cut-short by foul weather. We had a similar situation in 2000, when we drove from Colorado to Disney World. Ran into a bad weather front that we found ourselves driving along in, as it moved east along the Gulf Coast. Decided to stop our progress in [pre-Katrina] New Orleans and let the front get ahead of us. Worked out GREAT! Spent two days in a B&B in the Jazz Quarter of the Old French Quarter. Ate GREAT Cajun food. Listened to NO jazz. Walked the historic streets and took all kinds of pictures of gorgeous courtyard gardens.
RE: Discussions
“Will get back to you on your points, as i am very much enjoying this discussion, so long as it stays a discussion.”—Jules141
I enjoy such as well. Looking forward to more detained understanding.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[As iron sharpens iron, so does one mind sharpen another.—Saint Paul (paraphrased)]on 08/08 at 10:17 AM -
Found an article you might be interested in, here:
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=640
It definitely sways towards your opinion and brings up some interesting points about how a Islamic feminism could help western society.
Chuck - “Show me where science has proven God does not exist.”
Show me where it does prove his existence? Or, show me where it give evidence supporting God? Or show me where is says the golden magical teapot that orbits planet Earth (which is in control of the planets rat population) does not exist?
Chuck - “What sort of ‘future’ were you thinking of?”
The future as I see it? A multicultural society, religions and believes and people living in the same place, drowning each others extremism.
I cannot remember exactly the quote, or who said it but it went something like this:
“A country with one religion is fascist.
A country with two is at war.
A country with three is at peace.”Or something similar. Its at times like this I wish quotes could roll of my tongue with more ease.
Extremist Muslims may want their world view to be true, but in a truly multicultural society, they will become watered down. Any efforts to win over others wouldn’t work. Just as how if British Christian extremists tried to convert a majority of people in this country it wouldn’t work. There are many groups that would be against them. Muslims techniques of converting (or just killing the enemy) are more, hardcore, shall we say. But it still stands, too many people are not Muslim in Britain. They cannot win.
Chuck - “P.S. See? You’re not the only one interested in the Truth. So, as I said above, which philosophy has a greater variety of tools? Christians or atheists?”
Atheists are not a group, they do not need tools. But I can assure you, in defence of their own lives they will be very powerful. Especially given the number of them living in Britain today, and the number of them living in Britain tomorrow.
I do apologise, this has been a bit of a miss-mashy post.
on 08/09 at 06:14 AM -
http://www.modoracle.com/news/Muslims-Make-Britain-Safer_16606.html
- Just a little article that sums up my opinion better than I can.
on 10/04 at 08:52 AM